You Don't Need a Bigger Team to Build a Stronger Brand

Let's say I am somebody who needs marketing and messaging, and they come up to you at a cocktail party or a- Mm. At a concert. You're obviously in a band. So you, you, you see them backstage after one of your shows. Right, see them back... Well, only if they have a pass. Only if they have a pass. Right. Right.

Right. And, uh, they, they wanna talk to you about a, a GEO. This sounds like the worst concert actually ever. Sounds like a terrible- Yeah ... terrible backstage. Yeah, not, not a good time. "Hey, Mark, let's talk about GEO. Great show." "It was a great set, but yeah, I've got another topic."

Welcome to the Marketing Team of One podcast, where we have conversations about the issues one-person marketing teams face when trying to meet their goals with limited time and budgets. Now here's your hosts, Eric and Mike. Welcome back to the Marketing Team of One podcast. Today's guest has spent more than 25 years proving that the best brand strategies are rooted in authenticity, emotional connection, and mission.

Mark DeVito is the managing director and head of brand strategy at SKDK, one of the country's leading public affairs and political communications firms. In that role, he works with philanthropic, nonprofit, political, and corporate clients on brand development and positioning, helping them elevate their story and drive campaigns that actually move people.

Before SKDK, Mark served as chief strategy officer at Yes, And agency, where he helped grow the firm from $16 million to $27 million in revenue. His client work over the years has spanned some pretty notable names like FEMA, the US Department of State, Sentara Healthcare, and the US Mint. His creative work is also aired on PBS, National Geographic, and Discovery.

Oh, and by the way, he's won three Emmy Awards. What makes Mark a perfect fit for this show is the rare combination. He thinks like a strategist and creates like a storyteller. Please welcome to the show Mr. Mark DeVito. Whoa, what a nice intro. I might actually use that strategist creative storyteller- Oh

line. That's all mine That needs to be in my LinkedIn bio or something. I'll copy and paste it, and you can have it. Yeah, you, y- you, I, I pulled all this from LinkedIn, so Oh, that's cool. Every time somebody reads that, though, you should get, like, some residuals for that. Well, I, that's part of the reason we're having this conversation-

is we need to talk money, dollars and cents. Exactly. Obviously, you're doing this, um, for cash? No, you're not. Yeah. You're not doing this for money. For cash and prizes. I think. And prizes. Prizes. Remember that was always, that was always the thing. It was always, for some reason, prizes always accompanied cash back in the- Yeah

the old days- I wonder- ... of advertising ... if the legal department had to say that just in case. Right, exactly. It's like a prize could be anything. We just, if, as long as we put enough ambiguity in there, like, nobody can attack us. I remember when I was a kid, we took a tour behind the scenes at, um, one of the game shows, Sale of the Century or something like that.

Oh, okay. And we walked right past all the, all the stuff that they were giving away. And I remember thinking, looking past, I'm like, "This stuff is crap." Like, that pool table was made out of, like, Formica and, like- Right ... particle board. Like, this stuff- Particle board ... is not- Yeah, all the, all the garbage I think I saw Hollywood Squares once, too, or something.

Oh, that's, that's, that's good. That's a good one. Ooh, that would've- Yeah ... been great to see live. That's cool. Showing my age. Yeah. No. I think we've talked about it. It was more V2, not the original with, um, you know, Paul Lynde and all those people. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm too young. Those were the good days, and Madam.

Gee, this is gonna be a great episode. I know. I'm excited. Like, I hope nobody under 40 we've just alienated. Yeah, exactly. We've alienated that entire audience. They have no idea what's, what's coming. We're pulling in that ready to retire audience, which is great, I guess. I really do appreciate you helping.

You were on the panel that I led for the Associations West Membership and Marketing. We talked about rebranding. You talked, specifically your story was about rebranding an association here in, uh, California called CALI. Mm-hmm. Uh, and I talked about rebranding Associations West, and we got to talking and chatting and hit it off, and I just- Yeah

thought this guy needs to be on the pod. So thanks again. That's great. I'm so glad to be here. And first thing, right off the bat, let's talk about your hair. I mean, you have got epic, epic hair. Right? I mean- For my, for our, for our collective age, right? Well, I appreciate you putting me in your age group.

Yeah, we're all- My gosh. I might be 10 years older than you Yeah. I could be. Could be. You got the streak going night and day I know, I know Is that, is that genetic or...? There's, there's a, a very interesting story there. I was in a, I was in a bagel shop in New York, and the woman who was serving me said, "Are you from Tolino?"

And I'm like, "I have no idea what you're talking about." And she's like, "My family is from this small southern Italian town of, like, 6,000 people, and every guy who lives there has that streak." So of course- No way ... I had to go and ex- experience this firsthand. So I went with my wife and a bunch of friends almost 20 years ago now, and it was so weird, like, coming into town.

I'm like, oh my God, like, I must be, you know. And, you know, you hear all this, y- legacy story. The, my grandparents are from here and there. I'm like, there's gotta be some, some connection there, but, you know, who knows. I, I don't know if there's any relative there now. Well, I- Yeah I thought this would just be a goofy s- non-sequitur, but my gosh- I know, but no

there's a, there's a story ... there's a, there's a real story there. Wow. Man, again, I, I pull these things out of my head, and I'm thinking this is just gonna go nowhere, and then you add- I've got a lot of stories It just goes to show- You know ... your epic ability for storytelling, Mark. It's just- I've got a lot of stories, yeah.

Maybe too many You can turn anything into a story. I know that. I kinda can. I It's both- It's kinda your job, isn't it? It's both, uh, it's, yeah, it's a, it's a, it's an asset and a, and a problem sometimes as well. Oh, I know. Can connect with that in some way, shape, or form. Like, oh, there's not enough time for that.

Well, luckily we have enough film in the camera today to capture all of it. Amen. We're never gonna run out. Exactly. So we could just keep going. Um, well, let's talk a little bit about your history. What brought you to your position that you're at today? We d- went through a little bit of your history, but, uh, I'd love to know.

I know you, you studied an interesting... You, you started off in college with an interesting degree, I think. Yeah, classics degree. So it, it's come- Oh ... full circle with The Odyssey, um, in theaters now. Right. I can actually go- Right ... and talk about some of the authenticity of, you know, how the, you know, Trojan horse came into town, which they accurately depicted by dragging that into town, not on wheels- Oh

like we often see. Um, but, uh, and once again, lots of stories. Um- Yeah, I, I think that I was, uh, enamored by, um, some of those, the big mythological and historical past and, and, you know, wanted to, um, find ways of, of connecting to, um, to all that through, you know, through creative means. And so I, I- I, you know, after a couple years I realized I was probably not gonna be a Latin teacher, um, but, um, started to see where video production and creative production and- Mm

just creativity, um, was possible. I unfortunately was at a college, a small college in, in Buffalo that wasn't really catering to the creative, but I found a few of my people there, um, that ended up, uh, um, catapulting me into, you know, working in television for, for many years as a promotion producer and, um, doing things kind of on a smaller scale in that area, and then moving out west where you are, um, to be a part of a lot of big things that were happening in the, um, '90s and the internet explosion, and there was a, um, there was a, uh, network called ZDTV, Ziff Davis Television, that, um- Mm

was the first of its kind trying to combine, you know, being on your laptop and watching television and shopping online and all these things that we just-- that's just part of our day-to-day- Yeah ... existence now, but in 1998 it was not. Um, and in those days too I had the opportunity of, uh, overseeing our motion capture, um, uh, animated characters that were the hosts of some of the shows on ZDTV when we launched.

Those days were more about exploration and content strategy and thinking and, you know, back in the early days of television it was about, you know, actually programming the shows and thinking about the content for the shows and not thinking as much about binge-watching. It was more about, um, trying to ensure that you were on brands with the programming and the content that you were, that you were establishing for, for that network.

So that is really where my brand love first started. I was like, "Okay, this, this show is about how to shop online, you know. Let's make it fun. Let's make it appropriate. Let's make all the pieces in that even the, the look and the feel of the show feel like it reflects the type of audience that we want to feel like they're being spoken to here.

Um, and I did that for many, many years. Um, coming back to The DC area. Um, uh, was gonna go to New York, and then I'm like, I'm like, "I'll make a pit stop in DC." I was working on a, um, a long format, um, documentary for the Peace Corps at the time, and I'd been going back and forth to DC, and I'm like, "I really like DC.

There's places to park. This is kind of cool." So I'm like, "It seems like a-" Home to parking, I get it. Yes, e- exactly. Even to this day, I'm like, "It's a very accessible city." So I'm like, "If I go to New York, I probably won't have that right away, so I'll stay here." Worked in television for a while, and then, um, and then got thrown into the political, uh, media strategy world, which was wild and wooly, um, very 24/7, very intense, um, very passion-driven, uh, very content and strategically sound with all the things I had been doing and trying to stay on brand for our candidates Presidential campaign and congressional campaigns.

And then, um, uh, from there, um, decided that, you know, maybe I should be in like one of the bigger agencies in DC producing these kinds of things and campaigns and brand and marketing for very large clients. Um, WPP was at my doorstep and, you know, an agency we were building, uh, or that was being built there, um, I came on board.

It's called Proof, and it was linked to research and brand and strategy and campaign- Mm ... and advertising strategy. Um, and, uh, and if, if you ever heard of an old brand called Burson-Marsteller, the Marsteller side of Burson-Marsteller, which was an old p- PR agency, they still exist. Okay. Um, the Marsteller side was the, um, was the advertising side.

And so we were kinda brought in to reinvent the advertising side of that agency with this new- Mm ... agency, Proof, that I was building. Um, by the time that was all done, and we had done all kinds of great, great things, I'm like, "I can do this myself." And so I left, started my own small boutique agency. It was scary.

Um, it was probably more than I was ready to bite off at the time, but I did it. Um, and, uh, and then many years later, my agency was, was bought, and, um, did that for a while, and then decided maybe I need to go back into some of the political mission-driven things that were happening as our country is kind of, you know...

I mean, there's a lot of things happening right now. Lots of reasons- Change constantly ... right, exactly. So without getting too deep into, you know, uh, you know, my, my personal politics or where things are headed, I decided, okay, let me try to realign myself with folks who I've known from the past and can create, um, some, some great, some great, great work going forward.

So that's how I ended up where I am today. So I've been there for about a year now. SKDK, they're primarily, they do work in DC and help with political campaigns. Is that kind of their bread and butter, their biggest piece of work? Yeah, yeah, public affairs is, is core- Okay ... to that work, um, working with, uh- clients with big needs, you know, from higher education to, uh, public policy around, um, corporate needs to, um, to social justice, you know, that can exist in so many different areas.

And then of course, yeah, political campaigns, um, are kind of the, uh, the, the undercurrent to, to a lot of the things that we do. Um, my expertise is a bit more of working with, you know, B2B and B2C corporate brands. Um, even though I like all the political stuff, I really enjoy seeing an organization grow and thrive and evolve and rethink, um, how they are gonna be as relevant as they can be, you know, in the years, in the years ahead.

So that's That's kind of where my head is still at, you know, even these days. Yeah, and it's reflected. You did that rebrand for an association here in California. It's kind of you, you like those kind of more mission-driven aspects- I do ... and you kind of lead the branding side of that, which is something that SKDK really never had before they brought you on, correct?

Is that- That's right, that's right. You know, and it, and it is definitely, you know, uh, it's... You know, communications is communications, how we tie it all together, um, the different aspects and tactics that we use, but there's definitely still languages, you know, and sometimes some of those languages translate and other ones don't.

Um, the brand process is, yeah, it's definitely a very, it can be a very intensive process. It doesn't have to be. Yeah. Um, it, it can also be, you know, an agile process that you're looking at and analyzing, you know, um, pretty regularly to understand how things are happening, you know, both culturally, um, and within your industry, um, and how you're staying as relevant as possible.

I have one client now that I'm working with where we're just tweaking words, you know, a lot of times to understand- Mm-hmm ... how their market is changing and how they're differentiating who they are within that, that pool, and just sometimes that little bit can go a long way, you know, in, in creating, um, you know, both differentiation, but also an understanding of, of what they, you know, where they're coming from and, and why they're appropriate, you know, to engage with.

Crafting it, the, the messaging and the, and the strategy around that messaging exactly right for their audience so that it hits- Exactly ... perfectly is kind of your- That's right ... sweet spot. What's that like? I mean, when you started at SKDK, those first few months, was everybody kind of like, "Oh, boy, who's this guy?"

Who's, who's this guy? "What is, what the heck is he doing?" Um, well, the good news is- He's got gray hair, but I mean... You know, what the heck? We, uh, you know, some of us had actually met 20 years previous working on some of those, um, some of those bigger campaigns. Oh, okay. So it was a little bit of a homecoming just for a few people.

That's nice. So that was really nice. Um, they're still doing a lot of those things. Um, the tactics have changed. It's, it's great to see, you know, how they're incorporating text messaging into some of the bigger campaigns- Mm, mm-hmm ... how they're incorporating other digital techniques into really engaging with very specific- cohorts, um, the guy who, uh, who built the network, um, that is part of w- the, the network that our agency is a part of

It's called Stagwell, and that's Mark Penn, and, you know, years ago he, he wrote a book called Microtrends, and it really is about how to- Oh ... speak very directly to smaller cohorts, um, in political and, and, and mass when you're talking about, you know, s- very specific marketing because then you really do not only pinpoint, but you create very bespoke, um, conversations that, that really do connect with people on a, on a much more intimate level.

Soccer moms came out of that. I think he actually coined that phrase. Interesting. Yeah, we'll put a link to that in the, in the show notes. That's a... I r- do remember how that was kind of a cultural iconic book. I mean, it really did outline some of the- Absolutely, and it still rings true today. I mean, personalization, you know, I think, I think we've gone away from, you know, several years ago it was this, this, this trend in marketing.

If you built a website, you know, there needs to be some way to, you know, cultivate exactly the experience that you want. Um, and that still exists- Mm-hmm ... but I don't think it exists in the same way that we were seeing before. I think it was existing in this kinda microcosm of the ex- brand experience that you were seeing in that one digital platform.

Now it's more expansive. How do those things and those, that messaging expand to all the things I engage with, in my Instagram- Yeah ... in my, the other, you know, short-form content that I like, the, the things I do in the real world? Like, all the things that are a part of that experience is where marketing is, is, is headed, and AI obviously has a huge role in, in how that's gonna go down.

Um, but we'd like to think that, you know, the creative component and the things that we bring to the table, the human aspect is hopefully, you know, gonna stay with us. For now. With these people. Yeah. Yes. We hope. Until I have the Eric Robot 1000 step in and be the host, probably do a much better job. That's cool.

But yeah, working on that. It's a lot better than the Eric 500. I like that one- ... but the Eric 1000 sounds- Twice as good. Thanks, man. Well, I'll, I'll send that back to the team. I don't know what I said. That gives them a little wind beneath their wings. They'll appreciate that. Um, you've worked, you know, we've both worked with associations, and it's always interesting.

I work with a lot of state agencies as well, and kind of- Mm ... work inside of that bureaucratic world, but it's never on that federal level. I'd love to learn a little- Mm ... bit more. Like you said, FEMA, the State Department, the Mint. What, I mean, is it like 50 layers of bureaucracy? Is it difficult? Do you know people in there to where they're like, "Okay, just talk to these three people and you're gonna get your project taken care of," and, you know- Mm

what's it like working on brand inside of- Mm ... those types of environments? You know, it definitely is agency to agency in some ways. Um- Okay ... I think, you know, some of them if structurally sound have, you know, like you said, like will have that, um, SWAT team that's, that's very directly- Mm ... tied to what you would see even in a corporate environment, you know- Mm

where they have the decision-making power. Um, I think the problem that you find in government clients is that you have a lot of people of influence, right? That want to, um, ensure that the, the decisions we're making and the things that we're doing, um, connect to all the other aspects of the agency- Yeah

and, and what they're doing. And those, those kinds of things can be much more, you know, much, much more layered and complex. Uh, it's not unlike the speed that you s- With universities, you know, or academic clients where it's- Mm ... you know, things start here and then they kind of propel here, but then they kind of go back here, and then we're kind of getting another couple steps, and then we take...

So it's not for the lack of all of these great people that work at all these places wanting to move at a better speed. It's just the nature of, you know, ensuring that, um, folks who have been there for a long time and, and, you know, are trying to protect the sanctity of, uh, the organization that, you know, that they have, that they have a role somehow, some way in the process.

I think the tougher thing for us on the agency side is getting embedded within those groups, you know? Uh, it's much easier with a corporate client or an association client or others to kind of get into their world and to, um, start exploring, you know, within that space. With government clients, it takes a lot longer.

Um- Yeah ... the flip side of that is once you're kind of in, you're in, you know? And that- Mm ... that relationship can last for a long time, which is great. Uh, until more recently when things just get cut you know- Yeah, I'm surprised ... on a whim, and then everything that's tied to whatever that initiative is, is all gone, and that's, that's very daunting to agencies that work almost exclusively with government contracts, um, or even government contractors themselves that have, you know, only a s- only several, you know, contracts that they're working with.

Um, it can be very daunting. Yeah, I think that that's what's ki- that that does seem riskier in this environment, but it also- Mm. That's kind of what's, uh, it's nice to be able to work with those smaller organizations- Mm-hmm ... you know, going back to, you know, marketing teams of one, oftentimes we're working with three people that are all the decision makers- Right

including the leadership, you know? And it's really nice because maybe there's a board, but then there's that kind of SWAT team, like you said, that- Right ... they're the decision makers, and that's a small team, too. So it's hard for me to wrap my head around organizations that have, have, are even much larger than that and then have even more layers of those- Yeah

kind of decision makers, but. And the process is typically, you know, for those of us working on the service side, on the agency side, we're not often, I mean, sometimes we are, but we're not often privy to how all of those strings of the process and the decision-making is even happening. Oh, yeah. I think where the slowdown happens is you are developing something, you're working on something, and then things kind of level out, right?

And you're sort of waiting for whatever the next part of that process is, unless there's like a, you know, there's a very specific, um, need to, you know, share something with the public or there's some inflection point or something, some event, something happening. Otherwise, if those things do not exist, um, you think that everything's going great, and then it could be radio silence for a long time while all- Right

the things behind the scenes are working, and that's often the, the tricky thing of working with, you know, bigger federal, um, clients, um, that have layers beyond some of the things that we can even comprehend. Is that part of, uh, one of your responsibilities in certain engagements is like, "We're gonna handle some of the PR and the communication to the public to keep them up to date as progress on things," or is that- Yeah, that's, that's exactly right

always? Okay. Yeah, that can be. For a big, bigger comms campaign, absolutely. Yeah. You know. Um, sometimes it's, it's, you know, and it's hard to even manage some of that, you know, sometimes. Yeah. Um, but, um, but yeah, that is, that is the tricky thing. It's, it definitely, it definitely makes you appreciate the, the faster moving, you know, more all-in, um, teams when you do work with them.

You're like, "Wow, we can just get this done, um, quicker." So do you deal a lot with people that may not understand what you're talking about? Uh, meaning like you're kind of from this brand side, your strategy on communication- Mm ... and then there's the programming people and the, you know, the, the policy people and the people that are kind of creating all that stuff.

Is there- Oftentimes confusion around that, or do you really just work with people who know exactly what you're talking about all the time? No, that's a great-- It's a great question 'cause it's-- the-there's definitely lots of blurriness, you know, with that. Okay. I think, I think the one area where everything kind of intersects is advocacy, you know?

So a big part of- Mm-hmm ... like, of my, um, oversight at the agency now is our advocacy campaign. So if we're working with, um, you know, a large entity or somebody who's, you know, trying to, um, ensure that, you know, we're targeting decision-makers around some policy or something that, that, that could have a bigger effect on outcomes or funding or you name it.

Yeah. Um, those things require strong marketing skills. They require strong brand skills, you know, to make sure that everyone who's engaging with these campaigns know where it's coming from, it sounds and feels like them, it's authentic, but it's also very heavily targeted strong marketing, sometimes almost hyper targeted in a way that, you know, when you're outside of that advocacy political world, you, you can't imagine that you're spending all this money, and you might be targeting 20 people, right?

Yeah. 25 people- Yeah ... that are your central main decision makers. And then what are the, you know, what are the layers around that? Um, the other components of that ecosystem that need to also have some com- some part to play in there, but they're not really who you're, who you're hoping to influence. You know, that's...

And that kind of central advocacy really comes down to even what we work with in the association world, right? I mean, their, their goal is to ensure that they're on top of, you know, things and changes and, you know, forecasting what's gonna happen within their industries. Um, and, you know, being tied to government affairs and being tied to those things that are happening, um, in DC, uh, are paramount, you know, to all those things.

They should be... I mean, in, in my opinion, so many associations should be spending a lot more time governing their advocacy around the changing face, especially the quick changing face of what we're seeing federally and state run. Mm. Um, o- versus so much of the at- time and attention to some of the other things that might be great to bring the members together, which is awesome, um, and need to happen, and that's what the members want.

Um, but it really should be the, the bigger outcomes of some of that influence and some of the, um, the possibilities when you bring an entire industry together under one umbrella. Interesting. Yeah. I mean, the, a lot of the focus that I experience with a lot of these associations is building membership or, you know, building revenue and- Right

just kind of, you know, building their existence around just that ecos- the budgetary and financial ecosystem- Right ... in a sense. Which is important. Yeah. I mean, they need it to stay, but, uh, that other layer I think is, I don't know, from my side of it, it seems like, "Oh, well, the lobbyists will handle that," or, you know-

like the, the, the legal team, they'll take care of talking to those people. Yeah. Right. Th- those guys. Yeah. Those guys in the other smoky back rooms, you know. You've almost highlighted just the point that there should be, like I said, maybe I've got three layers in the people that we're dealing with. You've got- Mm

you know, your team directly that you're working with inside that group. Then you've got the leadership, then you've got the board, then you've got membership. I guess leadership and board would be pretty similar. Mm. But you're kind of bringing in even more layers. Like there's the public perception side of things because a lot of what you're doing- Oh, yeah

is around public policy stuff. Which is much more complicated as to where you're trying to change minds of maybe 20 people. You still have to communicate to these thousands of people over here. Not that they have the power as much as these 20 people do, but that's gotta be a fascinating dynamic to kinda try to manage that.

It is. You know, and, and reputation management is kind of probably the, you know, on top of advocacy, probably the bigger intersection of, like, the world that I came from and the world- Okay ... I'm in now with, you know, with an agency like this. Um, you know, uh, we, we need to ensure that the, that the organizations that we're representing, um, understands where they are, you know, currently within ecosystem and the, the perception, um, of who they are a- and what they are capable of doing is, is the most important.

In fact, you know, now we're seeing the rise of, you know, um, not the, the kind of the sunsetting of SEO and the, the rise of, of GEO. Um, and what does that mean, right? How do we understand not only where they're showing up, but where they are showing up, what the public perception of, of, of them are in those, in those channels?

Um, so I think people kind of process GEO or GEO in, well, I just need to show up in all the LLMs. You know, so if somebody is searching for X- Right ... then I'm gonna be one of the ones in that list. But it's bigger than that, right? It's like, well, why are you showing up in that LLM? Well, you're showing up in that LLM, you know, whatever, you know, whatever that you're searching through because you're showing up in all the right places because of earned and owned media and other more appropriate channels for you t- for you to be in.

And now those things funnel into, into the right, into the right places, versus SEO was a little bit more of an exact science, right? If you didn't show up on the first- Yeah ... page of Google, maybe you don't exist. Well, I think too- Now it's different, you know? Yeah, it's... And, and back in the d- day, and by this I mean, you know, six months ago.

Yeah, back in the day- Back in my day ... like yesterday, right. Yeah, exactly. It, it's like, you know, there were other tactics to get there that- Mm-hmm ... you know, were debatable how ethical they were, and obviously not, you know, black hat stuff we don't even talk about. Gray hat stuff is what more I'm talking about, and maybe- Mm-hmm

even white hat stuff that, you know, there were, like, these prescriptions that marketers could put together and like, boom, all of a sudden you're here. Right. And really it still comes down to, and I was talking to somebody about this yesterday, and they basically were like, "Yeah, it's no different." And I thought that was a refreshing take- Mm

on it because everybody that I talk to is panicked and freaked out, and marketing's dead, and all these things, and it's... He just kinda looked at it, and he's a fellow marketer as well, and he's like You just have to be relevant and be the authority. And that hasn't changed, and that's kind of still it. It just comes through a different channel now, you know?

It does. That you can't manipulate as much as you could before maybe True. That's very true. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. I agree. AI is a fascinating world to get into, and AI search, and GEO, and all that stuff. I, how do... I mean, let's say I am somebody who needs marketing and messaging, and they come up to you at a cocktail party or a- Mm

at a concert. You're obviously in a band. So you, you see them backstage after one of your shows. Right, see them back-- Well, only if they have a pass. Only if they have a pass. Right. Right. Right. And, uh, they, they wanna talk to you about a, a GEO. This sounds like the worst concert, actually, ever. Sounds like a terrible- Yeah

terrible backstage. Yeah, not, not a good time. "Hey, Mark, let's talk about GEO. Great show the other night." "It was a great set, but yeah, I've got another topic." Yeah. Let's move on to something relevant. I think, um, how would you address people who just say, "Mark, it's all changed. It's ch- it's totally dramatic. I, my business is gonna freak out, and I, I won't get found, and people won't know who I am anymore."

Right. I mean, I kinda made an argument for it's all still the same game, but, uh, uh, do you have a different take on that or a kind of a, of a version? I do. I, I actually think that, and maybe this is what you said a moment ago, you know, where marketing is, is not only still relevant, but now we gotta be a little bit more strategic and a little bit more, you know, um, uh, widespread, right?

Mm-hmm. We need to make sure that you're, you know, especially for small businesses, how do you get into conversations that, you know, elevate your brands, that people- Mm ... quote the things that you're doing or, you know, uh, want to use some of your architecture or some of your thinking, some of your philosophy in the conversations around something that might be some new fledgling, you know, tactic or innovation or something that's happening in the world.

Um, yeah, I think, I think it is, it is a trickier world, and I, and I do think, I, I continue to think that people who do what we do, even though everybody's thinking the sky is falling, I think we're becoming even more relevant in some ways. Yeah. Like, uh, you know, for those of us who have had years and years of expertise in trying to, you know, um, uh, help to recommend, like, where to put your energy, where you're gonna have the most, you know, the most bang for your buck, most ROI.

I mean, those things are, are still very relevant, right? And I think it's like the startups I used to go to when, you know, we were starting to talk about, like, what their brand should be, you know, and the very first thing the brand strategist does is looks at the industry and looks at where they are unique, you know, within the industry and what lane they can own, right?

Mm-hmm. And every startup always said the same thing to me. "Well, I don't, we don't compete with anyone. You know, we're our own thing." And I'm like, "You're not your own thing." You know? Right. There's lots of people doing what you're doing. Owning that lane is, is hard, you know? And sometimes you don't even realize, you know, who you're competing against.

And a lot of mission-driven companies are probably more guilty of this than anybody. They're like, "We're, you know, we're doing this," or, "We're partners with all of our... You know, I'm friends with all of our competitors." I'm like, "Yes, but they still will take part of your market share if you're not strong- Yeah

and sound with the decisions that you need to make to ensure that your voice is unique." Right? You can still complement and work with one another, but you still need to, in this type of society and what we do, you still need to ensure that you have a unique voice that people will, "Oh, I'm only gonna go to them, to these guys for this because I know that they're the best ones to, to handle it."

Um, or they're the ones who are gonna understand me the best. So I think we've become even more relevant, and I think geo and AI and all these things, if we do everything that we should be doing to, you know, kind of take this amazing technology, like when the internet was born, although this is definitely a lot different than that.

But- Yeah, yeah ... think when the internet was born, and trying to create some kind of non-Wild West component to it, um, I think it can be wonderful. I think it could be amazing. I mean, I think, you know, it's, it's all the conversations. It's the, it, it, you know, all these menial tasks that we don't wanna do, yeah, it's great, you know?

Um, all these things over here that we would-- it would take us so long to survey so many different, you know, things to ensure that our decision-making was, was refined. Yeah, that's great. All those things are awesome, but they don't replace How we do what we do. I think that it, it takes what we do further, you know, and, and adds to it and builds a much...

You know, we talk about speed of, of work. Yeah. You know, it allows us to do more, you know, in a shorter period of time. So I'm, I'm excited about what's ahead, you know, and hopefully that, as I said earlier, the creative component is really what separates, you know, human beings from everything else. Yeah. And I don't care what robots or whatever, we are, and we are all inherently creative.

Everything that we do in our lives, whether you say, "I'm not a creative person," or, "I'm a this," or, "I'm a that," no, you're still, you are a creative part of this universe. That's how it goes. You are making creative decisions about everything that you do every day. You know, other- Right ... animals might not. So if we hold onto that and we can focus that, I think there's lots of great partnerships with AI in, in the future.

Well, I, and I get criticized sometimes that I'm often too optimistic about AI too, but I'm totally aligned with you on that because I've been through the computer revolution, the internet revolution- Right ... and all of them were supposed to destroy elements of our business- Destroy it ... when in reality all I did see was them just flourish and blossom and bloom into something even more- Totally

expansive and e- exciting, you know. I read this awesome article, I'm trying to think of who, maybe it was New Yorker Just a few days ago, all the movies that made all the money this summer were all movies that portrayed authenticity in a way that, that- Hmm ... movies haven't in a long time, right? Interesting, yeah.

So you think about all the, and you think about the ones who went all in on deep CGI and non-authenticity- Yeah ... all panned. They all did terrible at the box office. Interesting. You're seeing more and more people buying more and more tickets for movies that are gonna be released in like months to come. My daughter just bought the Avengers ticket for December-

or November, whenever. That's insane. Like when, when have we ever experienced that, right? That's crazy, yeah. So I think that there is, I think alongside this crazy ride that we're on with generative and all these things we're seeing, there's another current over here that's like, that's all fine and good, but we as humans want authenticity.

We want the- Yeah ... genuine. We want things that are real. I'm, you know, in- interviewing people right now for a campaign, um, and I'm using the real people. They, we could easily use actors, you know, but we need real stories, and that's with anything that we do. We want real stories, and we wanna know that the real stories are cultivated from the right place.

It seems like you lean a lot in storytelling in a lot of your techniques and the way you get to the real real when it comes down- Hmm ... to it. And what other... I mean, what are some of your secrets behind that? Because this is something that I pressure people f- on all the time is I want stories. People want- Mm-hmm

inherently for thousands- Indeed ... and thousands of years, we're human beings. We, we live on stories. That's what we, that's our lifeblood in a lot of ways. 100%. How do you extract that? What are some of the tools and techniques that you use that maybe a small marketer or solo marketer- Hmm ... has to do some social videos and they're like, "I don't know.

This guy is just a plumber." I'm like, "Okay, well, there's could be a story there, right?" I mean- Totally ... this guy just works on dryers. Like- ... talk to me about some of these, you know? Okay. Well, the dryer example probably is pretty dry. No, I'm just kidding. He probably has a story too, you're right. Um- All right, Mark.

Yeah. I have to stop recording after that one. That was horrible. Um, the, uh, um, the, I think the thing that turned me the most was, uh, I was working on an energy campaign for Dominion Energy back in- Uh, 2007, so almost 20 years ago, and it was a reputation management campaign. It was also trying to understand, you know, how your, you know, your energy company kind of serves the community and how they're there for restoration and all the things that happened.

And we wanted to hear from linemen, the people who are up there doing and fixing all the stuff, and everyone was like, "Okay, well," you know, casting and trying to figure out who these people... and what kind of people do we want in there. And why don't we cast the real linemen? What would it be like if somebody saw the lineman in the spot on TV, and then they saw them outside?

Oh my God, that's really Phil. That's really that guy. Like how crazy is that, right? Yeah. Yeah. So we did that, and it worked, and the feedback that Dominion got from using real people who had a real story, the personalities of these men and women that we interviewed were astonishing. So I think, I think to answer your question, it's everyone's got wonderful stories, but you have to, you have to understand how to dig into some of those things, right?

And make sure that you're cultivating the right cohort of people that you're trying to extract that from. And also really understanding enough about your audience to know what's gonna resonate with them. Like, do they like this kind of... Is this what they're trying to get from the storytelling, or are they trying to get something more practical, you know, over here?

Or is it really emotional, or is it something that affects them personally? You know, all those things. I, I was talking to, to somebody the other day, and I'm... and they're like, "You know, when it comes to, like, you know, public policy campaigns or political campaigns, like, what is, what do you think the number one tactics are?"

I'm like, "People only care about stuff that matters to them." Yeah. That's it If you, if you see a campaign and you're like, "Well, that doesn't affect me," I don't care how great of a person you are, there's a pretty he- heavy chance you're gonna be like, "Well, I'm not gonna pay attention to the rest of that ad," right?

Interesting. The moment it, it connects, you're like, "Oh my God, that's my kid in school," you know? Talking about Cali and all the things that are happening in education technology these days, right? Like, all of those cohorts that surround the issues. I mean, LA public schools now banning technology. It's a black-and-white issue.

Pen and paper, right? I mean, these things have critical effects on who we are as a society, who we are as a culture, and the communities that service all of those things. And if we're talking here, and people need to hear it here, then just bring that, bring it down. That's where the authenticity usually lives.

When you're talking to a good friend or you're talking to somebody in your community and you really connect with them, you're like, "I like that person," it's because they brought it down to a level that you feel like you, it's, it's innate that you're gonna interconnect with, with who they are as, as a person.

Do you... I mean, to get to that point, though, you've gotta use... How do you get to people to buy into this idea? Is it, do you use data? Do you coach people? Do you- That's a good question ... put together a fake version of it? I mean, I'd love to learn, like- Well, I do believe- ... here's how they should sell ... I think honestly, so, you know, especially in the world that I'm in now, you know, um, with SKDK, we, we prize ourselves on research, right?

It's, it's a core- Mm-hmm ... part of what we do, and I think people often think of research as being, you know, consumer research or, you know, I'm gonna be asked to participate in a survey or do a... It is a little bit of that, but it's, it really does come down to, you know, to qual and qualified research. It comes down to that, that one-on-one experience, you know, with, with people who actually...

The reason why it's called stakeholder is 'cause you have some stake in it, right? You- Yeah. ... you care about it. You're talking to people who actually care about it, and you're trying to get into, like, what are those, why do you care about this, you know? I know you care about it, and I know it affects your family and your community and all these things, but, but what is it that really turns the tide when you think about, like, how you want to influence this one issue?

And when you get into that, and you get into the human part of that, and you start to see in the 12 people that you've had those conversations with, 10 people all said the exact same thing, now you know where you're going, right? Now you know that you've got a North Star that maybe you didn't realize before.

Insights should drive everything that we do, in brand strategy, in marketing strategy, in, in everything. Um, and sometimes it's obvious, and a lot of times it's not, you know? So I think, I think to answer your question- It's definitely, and once again, to add relevance to people who do what we do, you know, could I throw anybody into those interviews and extract that information?

Or does it need to be somebody who has some way, maybe a little bit of personality, to ensure that people are gonna connect with them and allow them to dig in a little deeper, right? And you, we all know those kinds of folks, right? Yeah. That are like, "How, how did you get... How did you find that out?" "Well, I asked the right person, that's, that's how I found out."

You know, so I think, I think we're gonna see more and more research, you know, um, uh, rise to the surface in trying to understand how things are going and, um, understand what, what really does matter to, especially to Americans in today's very polarized and changing, changing climate. How big of a sample...

What's, like, one of your example of, like, your largest sample size of, like, okay, we've got to poll 10,000 people? Or is, is there some sort of extreme edge case that you had, that your initiative had to really pull from a large pile of data- Oh, yeah ... to really get down to, like, no, this is about Jill, and she has a kid who da, da, da, whatever the story is.

I mean. Yeah. No, just recently with a very large corporate client, um, uh, we had to understand how policy might affect, um, their base in 13 different states, right? So that, that, you know, those sample sizes were large, right? And, and it was interesting to see how, you know, things might change from a state to state perspective, but also even the types of cohorts that you would pick.

So you're not only extracting trending data from each one of the groups that you were targeting, but then also against each other, right? Mm-hmm. In, in those, in those modules. Wow. Which is ve- a very political way to kinda poll in some ways. Yeah. Um, but, you know, w- when it, when it comes to something that might, may or may not happen from a policy perspective, you know, you really have to understand who's, who's really at stake.

You know, who are the folks who are critical to understanding how this is gonna affect larger groups? Um, and that c- yeah, that can be, that can be millions of people, right? That are- Yeah ... that are incorporated into, into something more national like that. I've even done international broken into, you know, country and continent around more large scale issues, you know, around healthcare, you know.

Mm. Or, um, around, you know, governance around, you know, um, travel protocols. Um, other things that might have like bigger, you know, uh, implications both to Americans, but maybe a little less to Europeans, or maybe the perception is in reverse. We always thought this was a bigger, "Oh, they've been dealing with this for 10 more years than we have," right?

Yeah. Yeah. And lo and behold, now it's like let's use some of that understanding to help and influence this. Is it, do you find... I mean, sometimes when we talk to people, and, and a lot of our clients, of course they wanna know what the public thinks or what this subgroup- Yeah ... thinks or their audience, whatever that means to them.

And a lot of times we can get this-- If, after talking to like five or six people, we're like, "This is pretty much what we're looking for." And maybe what we're working on maybe isn't as sophisticated as what you're working on, but- But it might not- Do you ever find yourself in that position where it's like- Oh, yeah.

You're like, I, I- They want 10,000, but these five people pretty much got us right on track here. Totally. Totally. Yeah. I mean, I think people are often amazed when, you know, they're like, "Well, I, I got the robocall," or, "I got the this," or, "I got the text message." I'm like, "You might be a part of a very small sample, but your-" Mm

"demo fits the bill enough so that you have now represented potentially thousands and thousands of people in your response." Wow. So I always tell people, when you have that opportunity, don't think it's just robocalls to millions of people. It could be to a very small group And your, your decision or your responses to that could have massive implications Wow.

So there's a note to everybody to answer all the robocalls and robo-texts. I know, I don't like to answer them sometimes too, but I get it. But I do think about that. Thank you. It's the same as the, your perception of your vote. Well, you know, does mine really matter? You know, there's so many- Interesting, yeah, yeah

votes, right? Or this is a slam dunk, like everyone in our district is gonna go vote this way. Do I really need to go to the polls? Yes, go to the polls. Like that's, that's, that's your right, obviously. Like, that's one of the very few things that, like, nobody can take away from us, hopefully. Yeah. Um, but, you know- Yeah

but those, those things are, are important, and every little bit matters. It really does. And when you start to see it from the other side, you realize how much that, that influence can have. Yeah, so I mean, you, you can kind of understand probably why in this, every election cycle we go through, people are shocked that the polls didn't indicate this decision.

And I... They can't believe- Right ... this candidate or this- Right ... this idea won because the polls never said that. And it's probably- Oh, yeah ... because we're all deleting that text or not answering our phones. Is that- That's 100%. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Wow. Okay. Well, I guess that's a public service announcement that we-

we now have, now that we're responsible. That is a little bit of a PSA, yeah.

Working directly with executive directors, what is, what are they actually worried about that never gets said out loud- Mm, mm ... to the marketing team? That's really interesting, and I think, you know, going back to, um, you know, what we were talking about in the beginning or talking about some of the advocacy and some of the other things that I feel are paramount to, you know, to the existence and the purpose of, of the association community.

I think honestly, and, and this is not an offense to all the EDs out there, I think sometimes it's very m- mathematical, right? Mm. They are more concerned about, you know, uh, acquisition and retention. I think they're, they're very concerned about their numbers at the events, you know, and how many of those folks are, you know, uh, have decided to not be members, which would've been the same price as paying for the event, right?

So what does that tell us about us, or why did they, did they not find us relevant? Do, do younger audiences not care about these types of communities anymore? You know- Yeah ... which I, I find is a very common conversation, but I don't know if I necessarily agree with it. I don't think they're being promoted in the same way.

Like, when I'm mentoring younger folks and they're talking about, "Well, I'm doing this" or, "I'm reaching out to these people online and I'm doing all this stuff," I'm like, "What face-to-face engagements are you going to?" Yeah, interesting. "What types of things are you in front of people?" You know, especially people looking for jobs, you know, other things.

Yeah. I'm like, "You need to have that. That's where your relationship building is gonna really happen, you know?" Um, so I think that there's a little bit of that. I also think that, and why, you know, the brand piece I think is, is very relevant, it's not about the look and the feel, you know, of the brand even though that's where, where it exits, you know, the process.

I think it's more about, like, how they see themselves, um, how attractive they are as an organization- Mm ... as a community. Um, you know, do they cultivate an environment? You talk about, you know, being attracted to something and wanting to... You know, those things are, I think for the EDs that are bigger thinking and, and really, that's, that's very important, you know, to, to them.

But I think it, I think it expands even beyond that. I think, you know, it's, it's, it's yes, it's about living in the moment and knowing where you are right now, but where, where do you in your niche organization want to be 10 years from now, and how does that influence some of the decisions that you're making right now?

You know, and surveying what's happening both industry-wise and, uh, and culturally, right, around some of those in- th- some of those industries, especially ones that are technical, you know, or have other aspects that could have bigger, you know, bigger implications so That's what I'm seeing. I'm seeing a lot of that Yeah.

I'm won- I'm wondering, you know, when an ED has requests or, you know- Mm ... sometimes they have an idea and the marketing director has an idea. Yeah. Maybe they're working towards the same goal, but, uh, how would you coach either the marketing person or the ED, or would you just get them both in a room and just hash it out like You both are working towards this one thing.

You're saying this, you're saying that. I mean, how do you- Yeah ... do you manage that sometimes in, in those relationships- Yeah ... those conversations? I mean, probably doesn't happen as often as, as, as you'd think, but, um, 'cause typically, you know, uh, I know on the agency side you're either working pretty closely, like Callie was, you know, small organization, so we were working very closely with the ED and, and some of her, um, you know, inner circle, which in a small organization is kind of the whole circle.

Sometimes it's like the whole thing. You're amazed that they can get as much done as they can with such a tiny little team, you know? But- Yeah ... but then sometimes you are working with the larger associations with, you know, with the head of comms or the head of marketing, and you don't really have that access, you know, to, to some of the, some of the bigger...

And you wish you did, because I think, I think that, you know... I mean, one of the biggest things I always ask for at the beginning of any engagement is I need to see your strategic plan, right? I need to see your- Mm-hmm ... your business plan. Not your communications plan, not your marketing plan, not your brand plan, none of that.

I wanna see your business plan. Uh, what, what are your business goals in the next five years, quarter after quarter? What are you trying to achieve? You know, everything- So long term, not like next quarter- Long term, yes ... or next year. Yes. Yeah. Tie it into the short term, but what are some- Mm ... of the bigger goals that you have as an organization?

Our, our responsibility, whether it's, I think it's restructuring, repositioning brand, whether it's marketing initiatives, whether it's anything, is in service of that, right? It's in support of that. Yeah. If n- two years from now you need to increase membership by 30% for these reasons, if you need to increase resources by this percent for these reasons, then that's where our focus should be, right?

Not on these like large scale, you know, more, uh, across the board tactics, right? Let's focus on the things that are gonna move those needles so that you feel that we're fulfilling what the goals are. And if you don't have a business plan or a b- business strategy, then you shouldn't be hiring us, right?

Interesting. Yeah. Right? Yeah. I mean, if that's it, then what do w- So we're just sh- we're all just kind of poking around in the dark and hoping and praying that the things we're doing are doing something. But every organization should be focused on, especially EDs should be focused, a CEO's job is to vision where the company needs to be in X amount of years and what it's gonna take to get us there.

That's it. Do you- Right? Do, do you ever help with that process at all? Or is that something where you're just like, "No, I'm out. You don't have that?" A lot of times, yes. You know, a lot of times what I will see when I ask for those plans, sometimes they're astonishingly simple. Um, sometimes they're astonishingly vague.

Um- Sometimes they are very pinpointed around things, but you're not exactly sure why- Mm ... those things have been selected as, you know- Yeah ... um, the center of the universe for them. So I think, yes, I think, I think influencing that and having... And, you know, people who do what we do, and especially on brand, are always like, "Don't ever mix business with, you know, the...

That's a business problem, not a marketing problem." Mm-hmm. I'm like, no, they're all one and the same, right? If, if anybody has ever run a business, you know, you are using all of your tactics in support of driving growth or just driving the existence of that business, whatever it is. Yeah. No matter if it's a nonprofit or some big corporation, it's all the same.

So if you're doing that, then you need to choose tactics. Maybe this kind of marketing isn't important right now. Maybe it is more, you know, um, generating more, you know, earned media so that you're... In fact, earned media is in its heyday. It's like the first time in 20 years that, uh, that's really- ... you know, the big prime mover for so many organizations right now because the more they can get, they can show up in all these places, builds trust, authenticity, and throws them into AI, right?

Interesting. Time after time. Yeah. So, you know, so maybe that's your tactic. So do you wanna do a bunch of, you know, organic social media and paid media or this kind of thing or that kind of thing, or do you wanna focus on this, right? And the reason for focusing on that is in support of, you know, these two or three things that you know are gonna be super important in the not-so-distant future.

Yeah. Award-winning podcasts. There's a great opportunity, right? Right. Exactly. Oh, well- Exactly. Yeah, I think that that's what... What's cool, too, is the, this expansion we talked about earlier, is there are so many more platforms that people- Yeah ... can get that earned media placement and get out there. It's shocking to see within the last two years- Totally

how even I've gotten requests to be on podcasts and contribute things, and it's been- Right ... wonderful. You know? I, we- It's crazy. It's crazy. Yeah. And it shows... It not only shows your perspective on things and your expertise, but it also shows your passion for wanting to be a voice in those conversations, right?

Yeah. And not just focusing on that business. I was partners years ago with a production company, and they were always astounded with, you know, all the events and things I would always go, go to and be a part of and everything. And they're like, "What's the point of any of this stuff?" I'm like, "Uh, well, maybe we don't think about things in the same way."

Well, they were probably very tactical and crafty people- They were ... and just, they were right down to business, and I don't even know if you- Back in the day it was like that, right? Back in the day, like years ago, you had a few kind of core clients that, you know, would be so tied into your organization that you can just count on them for- Yeah

for years to come, you know? Those days don't really exist anymore. I mean, you can still have those types of relationships for sure, but, um, it's not the same. It's not quite the same. Well, I'm curious then, you know, what does your week-to-week, day-to-day look like? Obviously you get up, you play the drums for, what, three, four hours every day- Exactly, or more, right?

and then, and then... Yeah, or more. Yeah. What, then what happens in a Mark DeVito day? Well, you know, I mean, I think, I think you would agree, I think a lot of our, you know, a lot of our existence in, you know, in the agency world, um, is to ensure that we're working with the right people, that we're communicating and talking to the right folks, um, and that we have our influence.

So I spend a lot of time on, you know, um, uh, external, you know, communications and, you know, thinking about, you know, how to drive new relationships and, and, and bringing folks in. Not just from, you know, let's build this business and do all that, but really what... I mean, it's a big part of it, but what, what are the things that are gonna make us, you know, better at our jobs, right?

Hmm. So alongside that is, like, research, right? And, and looking at what's happening, trending, you know, in, in the world, and how are the, how are those things gonna influence the things that, that we're offering our clients? If we're, if we're supposed to be the experts, it's not just about the work that we're currently doing, it's about- Mm-hmm

understanding and being able to survey the landscape. It was always interesting to me when I had my small boutique agencies, we would be going after- You know, like a, a, a bank, and they're like, "Well, we o- we're only looking at agencies that, you know, that only have banking experience." And I'm like, "Well, that's pretty short-sighted of you."

Yeah. "So you want your agency to come up with the same language that they're coming up with for all the banks?" You know? There was a great, uh, book that came out for marketing in higher ed, and it was called Three in a Tree, and every cover of every single marketing collateral- ... for every college had three students sitting under a tree, you know?

And that's what you get when you hire agencies that only work for universities, right? Oh. They're gonna give you a little bit more of that. I love that. So that diversity and the, the expanded thinking is really what makes us good at our jobs. Um- Yeah ... don't be scared that we're working in these other industries that might not be relevant to you.

Be thankful that we're getting perspective on things that could have influence in your world, you know? Yeah. Or we could tell stories about how those things may, in the future, have influence in your world, you know? And that's hopefully why you come to, you know, somebody who does what we do because we have a diverse, you know, array of expertise and array of experiences that we have every week, you know, that, that hopefully rival those who are inside of an organization who are kind of all in- Yeah

you know, on that one brand, you know, and the things that they're trying to achieve. Do you do a lot of b- is a lot of your week, then, biz dev, would you say? Is, is, or is it more- I would say it's a good split. I mean, I, I try to spend, you know, a third of my time maybe doing that, but, um, the rest of it working with clients and, you know, um, working with teams.

Um, I'm probably doing more of the work work now that I've left being the, you know, kind of owning my own agencies and whatnot- Yeah ... and now I'm kind of in it, doing it, and I love it. I'm good at it, and I like to write and do all those things. It's, it's more exhausting but it, uh, it's nice to be back in it, um, and to be able to, you know, not just take the cred- "Oh, yeah, you were great.

Y- your company did such great things." And I'm like, "Yeah, but I didn't really work on it, you know?" "My team did." You know, and I, I have, uh... it's both, I think, a p- positive and negative. My management style has always been very hands-off. I hire the right people. I don't like to police people. I don't like to micromanage their work.

Um, I like to have them collaborate with me. Like, "What do you think of this?" Like, I love those conversations, not, "Is this good enough?" Right? Mm. If you think it's good enough and I've hired you to be in that job, then it better damn be good enough, right? What do you think? So I, I, I've always tried to surround myself with really strong people that I can just rely on, you know, time and time again.

But in doing that, you take yourself out of the work, right? Like, you- you're not doing as much of it, you're not involved in as many of the conversations. Um, now getting back into that's been, been really nice, you know, and, and, and, and good for my soul too. It's, it's nice, it's nice to be back doing some of the work and, and trying to, you know, facilitate some more creative thinking that, that hopefully helps people more directly I can imagine your team is thankful for your engagement on that, and it probably adds so much more value to the work that's being presented and produced.

Yeah. I mean, just to have all of those levels of perspective and craft, um, involved is... just makes for a better product, I think, overall. I think so too. Yeah, I think so too. I think that's right. Is there... I mean, AI, we talked a lot about that. I won't go into the details of a lot of that. Is it... But do you find yourself prescribing your team to use AI a certain way?

Do you find you learn- Hmm ... from them from certain things? Is, is there techniques that you've... secret sauce, all of a sudden it's like- Yeah ... "Yeah, Eric, you gotta do this, plus Claude, plus Perplexity equals greatness." Uh, what, what secrets do you have? Or- Yeah ... or do you learn from your team? I think it's definitely a little bit of both.

I think, um, uh, you know, what I've found is no one solution's the right one. I think you're right. Yeah. I think it's a combination of things. Um, you know, it's the relationship building with even with the LLM that I think is, is so key. Um, you know, like, like we all said in the early days of AI, it's about what you're asking it and how you're, how you're asking it.

I think some of that's true, but I think a lot of people can get to a lot of different conclusions in almost too many ways. So I don't know if that's necessarily the holy grail, you know, the best prompt ever kind of thing. Yeah. Um, the worst prompt ever is still gonna produce results for you, and your LLM is still gonna be like, "That's great.

Awesome. Here's your answer." Um- You're so smart. Yeah. Yeah, right. Right. I, I think, I think it's, I think it's more about, you know, I think what we're finding is y- you're seeing different people engaging with it in different ways, and I think that those in, you know, those, those relationships are, are kind of key.

Um, and you're also seeing people who are copying and pasting, you know, into things. Yeah. And that's, that's not key. I mean, that's, that's the antithesis of, of what we're, you know, here to do and how to use it. Um, and uh, and I, I, and I think people can detect it, just like with other things of this is, you know, um, this is coming from- Yeah

from, from that source. Your, your- So ... your movie, uh, example earlier, I think is a great illustration of that point. I think the biggest thing that we've all seen, um, especially when it comes to, uh, you know, some creative around, like, advertising techniques and things like that. Yeah. You know, it's, it's really hard, you know, even if you come up with something super out of the box and you feel really, really good about, you know, at the end of the day, you know, the client is gonna have the final say.

And you can do all you can to convince them that this is the right way to go, and hopefully it doesn't blow up in your face if they go with it and doesn't go that way. Um, but you can do all you can, um, but they also have to believe it, right? Yeah. And folks that hire us don't do what we do. And typically because of that, that- that's difficult for them to kind of get super into our realm.

So if there's always- Yeah ... the three concepts or the four things, the one that's the most conservative probably wins out about 80% of the time, you know? Interesting. Wow. For, sometimes for all the right reasons. You know, sometimes maybe it didn't need to be super left, left of center, but, like, those are... I have a lot of those war stories where I'm like, "No, this is gonna work," you know?

And it just, it just didn't get across the line. Mark, it's been a delight chatting with you. Thank you for- You too ... uh, spending the time and talking about all the things at the level. You work with gigantic organizations. You've got... How big is your team? Just curious, I mean. Well, you know, so what's interesting about, about our agency is it's not as modular as some other agencies are.

Mm. So I would say within, like, my sphere, um, there's about 20, 25 folks that I work with- Okay ... you know, pretty regularly. And the nice thing about being in an agency network, that I didn't experience at WPP but we have at Stagwell, the other agencies collaborate with each other, you know? So- Oh, nice ... even this morning I'm like, oh, my, one of my paid media people's like, "I'm up to my eyeballs.

I can't do this." So I went and reached out to somebody at one of the other agencies. Oh, wow. Lucky you. So that's kind of cool, you know? Yeah. So it, it definitely gives you, you know, and when you've got some of the best, you know, I mean, some of our agency partners are 72andSunny and, you know, Anomaly- Oh, wow, yeah.

Okay ... Code and Theory. I mean, like some of the best in the- Yeah ... in the world, then you know you're gonna be able to find somebody that's gonna help you out. Boy, that's, that's a really... You've really built quite a career, Mark, and, uh, it's exciting to kind of hear the inside scoop on that at a level that I think our audience, marketing teams of one, can learn and be- Mm

aspirational in listening to a lot of the examples and, and how you approach things, and see that it, it, it is kind of the same. It d- it just you- you've got maybe- The same ... more capabilities or scale or whatever that is. But all of the stuff that you talk about, the fundamentals, still relate perfectly to somebody- Who's maybe a marketing team of one I hope so.

Yeah. And, and I, and I think it's true. I mean, I, and I've been on all the sides, you know, with small, small groups and, and larger groups. And, um, as, as, you know, I think we said it earlier, it's actually kind of, mm, you get a lot more done with the smaller groups. I won't tell anybody you said that. Yeah, you can work a lot faster.

Um, but, um, but yeah. Well, thanks so much for spending the time. Thank you. And, uh, let us know where they can reach out and, uh, learn more from you, maybe LinkedIn, or how would you like people- Yeah, LinkedIn, LinkedIn's great. My email address is mdavido@skdknick.com. Um, and yeah, LinkedIn's great. Um, and, uh, yeah, all the other ways, so.

This has been great. Well, thanks so much again, and it's been great to, uh, chat with you. Awesome. And, uh, look for him. We'll put, uh, more links in the show notes for everybody, and, uh, thanks again. Perfect.

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