Branding Secrets From a Former CMO

Thanks. This is one of my, yeah, I got my docs. I love the socks and the docks, what we call these Y alternative, Y alternative because it's kind of western with the buckle, but it's very doc. Yeah. The lady who sold me these said, I like those. Oh, you're, you're into the alternative y alternative. You're like, okay.

I don't know. I'm just like, I guess I am

welcome to the marketing team of one podcast where we have conversations about the issues one person marketing teams face when trying to meet their goals with limited time and budgets. Now, here's your host, Eric and Mike. We have a very special guest with us this morning. Welcome back to the marketing team of one podcast.

We have Doug Aguiar. Thanks for being here. Thanks for inviting me. Doug is what, what were we gonna call him? A big wig. Uh, high powered, hugely qualified marketing and branding expert. Um, graduated from University of Washington with A-M-B-A-M-B-A, and then went to USC for journalism and is a former CMO.

For Golden One Credit Union, one of the top 10 largest credit unions in the country. So solid, overachiever right here. Wow. You've had a lot of experience. So when you were at, I'll say wamu, right? Isn't that what they called it? Washington Mutual? Is that, um, did you do marketing there too as well? Yes. So your journey through the financial services industry has all been marketing based?

Yep. I wanted to have Doug on here because. The perspective that he's gonna bring is one that not a lot of people can bring to this podcast because of that level of expertise and responsibility that he was in charge of. So we're gonna touch on a lot of different issues that are, may not directly relate to small, small marketing teams, which is what this podcast is all about.

Let's talk, let's go back to the beginning of your. Uh, journey a little bit. So you were doing your, you did journalism, which is fascinating 'cause I think that's a really helpful background for messaging. When you were doing journalism, was your aspiration to go into something around press publishing, things like that?

Or was it more like. I'm going to use that insight to help me work more around branding, messaging and things like that. Yeah, studying journalism. Originally I wanted to be a broadcast journalist. Okay. So, uh, I, I love sports and I wanted to be, um. Uh, reporter, like a on the anchor desk reporting about sports.

Oh. Um, so that was, you know, way back when, when I was in my late teens, you know, uh, that was the idea. And, uh, and then I pivoted to, uh, public relations and was really interested in writing. Yeah. Um, and to this day, you know, I'm a frustrated writer. My, my teams would tell you I'm a frustrated writer. I love to write.

And, um, I have my own style and it has helped me to tell those stories. It's just how stories are being told. You know, I've had to pivot along the way in my career. Yeah. Um, as most people do. I think marketers though, one of the key things about storytelling and marketing is really making your. Consumer, the hero of your story Arc.

Very good. Um, you really wanna put the member, you know, I was, and it's interesting that companies seem to forget that. I, I feel like that was one of the reasons we were so successful at Golden One Hmm. In branding is that we were always very clear that when we kinda came to work every day, it was about our members.

And you know, in the credit union space, your members are your owners. Yeah. One of the other interesting things that I learned being new to Sacramento about the arena was that. It attracted a different caliber of acts to Sacramento. Yeah. So they really had that kind of cultural impact as well, where, you know, Taylor Swift or you know mm-hmm.

Justin Bieber, like some of those people, you know, were actually stopping Yeah. In Sacramento. Whereas previously they, you know, they, they wouldn't. So, um, I was actually interviewing. Um, while they were negotiating the naming rights. Okay. To the arena. Uh, again, I was living in Seattle at the time. Mm-hmm. Um, of course when I saw that they had signed the naming rights agreement, it piqued my interest in this role because what marketer would not want to work on launching an NBA?

State of the art Yeah. Arena. Um, that is really looking to revitalize an area that kind of needs a little push. Yep. Um, so it really, it really interested me in, in the role. Um, and ultimately I ended up bringing two teams. This was a newly created role for Golden One. Okay. The chief marketing officer role.

And so, um, one of the things I'm very proud of is, uh, we, and I think this helped quell some of the criticism, is we allowed our members to, um. Entered the arena before the public entered the arena. Oh yeah, that's, so we were basically saying like, I would always say this is their house. This is your house.

Yeah. You paid for it. So you're gonna be one of the first to see it Nice. Before anyone else gets to see it. So that, that helped a little bit as well to, to. Create some momentum with the membership. What's that like when you get hand this, you're handed this opportunity. Is there just, okay, like let's get the team together, let's brainstorm some really cool things that are really outside the box because this, this is a event.

A marketing opportunity, but a also a cultural event. You know, let's brainstorm. What was that process like in in the, in the boardroom or behind the closed doors kind of thing? It'd be interesting. Mm-hmm. You're the one they point to, right? If something goes off the rails, it's on you. Right. Unfortunately, I always wanted to be A CMO.

Once you get to that role, to your points. You do have to have a pretty thick skin. Yeah. Because everyone has an opinion about marketing. Oh yeah. As you know. Yeah. You know, everyone's the expert. Um, so you really have to listen a lot and you know, there's no right answer. Brand is such a powerful force. I remember this one conversation I had with somebody who drove a Range Rover, you know, bought a Range Rover.

Yeah. And, um, he was saying, it's so practical and I can fit things in it, and I do a lot of construction. And then I said. There's other cars you could have bought that were practical, that you could fit your Yeah. You know, you paid a premium for this. Your emotions, you know, obviously played a role here and status and prestige, you know?

Right. And as a marketer, you know, those are things that you really need to get good at if you wanna be, uh, good at marketing. So you could take those and, and I'm guessing, and you can confirm this, yes or no. Tens of millions of dollars of marketing budget. Can I assume that it's at that level? Let's just say, might say, I know you can't disclose exact numbers, but it's Yeah.

Well, well, I would say it would be per year. Yeah. Because over time it was, uh, it was hundreds of thousands. Hundreds of millions or hundreds of thousands? Thousands, hundreds of thousands. Hundreds of thousands. Okay. Really critical point here, and I love the fact that you brought up this brand back to the branding thing again, because I think it's hard for us to justify sometimes to people who are much more maybe, uh, quantitatively focused, let's just say CFOs maybe what is the value?

What's the return on that investment for a brand? Because I think people. You know, it can be expensive. Like you said, it could be millions of dollars at the scale that you're doing it. Think about it. If you're changing logos, you're changing signage, you're changing messaging, you might be changing billboards and everything that people see and experience has to be changed out.

And that's something that when we go in and talk to, uh, some of our customers, we have to explain to 'em, okay, this is the initial investment to get you. The assets and you know, the messaging and the, the actual art files and all that stuff to get your new brand. Then there's the implementation cost around things, which is a whole other thing.

So I know CFOs see that and then immediately they start doing the calculations, like, why is this important? But maybe you could speak a little bit to that. Yeah. I actually looked this up preparing for this Uh hmm. Uh, podcast research. I did some research. Good. I denial research. I love it. Scrappy. Some scrappy research.

If you look at the most valuable brands, okay? Mm-hmm. Um, and maybe you could even guess what they are. You know, it's going, eight of the top 10 are technology brands. Apple. Apple. Yeah. You know, I, I do the a's the Apple, Amazon, alphabet slash Google. Yeah. Walmart's in there and Microsoft. Yeah, of course. So Microsoft, obviously tech.

Um, Walmart's one of the big ones that's not tech. Um, and those are worth, like, I wanna say it was $540 billion, just the intellectual property alone. Oh my gosh. But for us, uh, in my experience, we would do. Uh, tracking studies, brand tracking studies, which would really one advantage to those would be, it would help us optimize our investments.

So, so we would learn what's driving the needle, what's driving the needle on awareness, consideration, choice that, you know, at Golden One, we were off the charts on. Cons. We were number one in consideration in the Sacramento market, beating the big banks. Wow. Uh, so Bank of America, chase and Wells Fargo, we beat them when it came to consideration that people would consider us if they were changing or choosing for the first time a financial institution.

So that's good. Um, that, but we also learned that were they seeing the billboards? Were they, you know, how were they seeing the brand? What messages were they taking away? So that. Even for the le, you know, the left brain person, it helps from the standpoint of quantifying and optimizing your spend, learning what's, what people are seeing, just being more surgical and being strategic in how that's implemented.

That's really where a lot of that, uh, discretion or, or an analysis maybe came from or, or feedback possibly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So things like you have more pricing power. Think about it from a recruiting and retention standpoint. Mm. Yeah. You know, I would always say, you know, there's a reason you're sitting here, you knew the Golden one brand, or you knew the mm-hmm.

Why it worked at Chase or Lennar. You know, you knew the brand and you wanted it on your resume. There was value to that brand on your resume. Yeah. Um. So there's that friction in the sales process too, to consumer. I agree. You know, I think it shortens the sales cycle. Yeah. You know, you're not gonna do as much research and Yeah.

And so that service piece ties a lot to like B2B. Just to bring it back to, to my world a little bit, is, you know. When you work with a great design firm, possibly, you know, you get personal service and they know who you are and they know all your files and your whole story and things like that. There's, that's an intangible that is super valuable and makes a lot of your customers return because of that, you know?

Yeah. The per. I completely agree, and I couldn't have said it better. And I think it's the personalization. Mm-hmm. You know, now the hyper, they call it hyper-personalization. Mm-hmm. And so I know if you're a smaller organization, that can be difficult because it typically requires technology. Yeah. Um, you know, but I would say, you know, if you are looking to focus your marketing team of one, um, my focus would be, uh, you know, on the digital aspects, like I would, I would.

Hmm. I would focus on your website because you know there's a reason HubSpot's called HubSpot. You know, website is a hub. Yeah. And that's where you're gonna direct most of your traffic. So invest the time to, to, um, you know, to have the website, pull people through the funnel. If you can focus on your website, I would say lead nurturing.

Because if they're hitting your website, it's a shame if you let them go. Hmm. Like they've made an effort to hit the website. Tactical. What does that mean on a website, A landing page, sign up for a newsletter, little kind of stuff. Yes. I'm just thinking of your story now, and it's like, wow, you came into it doing the Golden One Center.

Well, and I think that from cost perspective too, I think that there's, you know, when you look at kind of traditional, uh, advertising, traditional media, the cost on that is exponentially higher than probably hiring a, an influencer or a couple of influencers that really speak more to those younger generations.

But have so much power over those younger gener. 'cause those younger gener, they don't even have televisions. They don't watch TV commercials. Right. They don't watch the stuff that, you know, you and I were raised on. That's true. You know? True. Or listen to the radio, you know? Yeah. And hear those commercials.

That's true. And you know, sometimes it's not the amount of followers they have. Yeah. Uh, the micro influencers can be, uh, valuable as well, where you have a niche, don't just look at the volume. Look at the quality and how it aligns with your mission, vision, and then your target. Interesting. Yeah. Which are mic, I guess they call 'em micro influencers, right?

It would be more the smaller influencer and you're talking like 50,000 followers or even maybe less, I would say. Even maybe, depending on what it is. Yeah. Um, it could be and how powerful they are. It could be even, and what product you're selling and what your price point is and things like that. It could be less, I think it's becoming more and more popular because as those younger generations age up, they still hang onto that.

They don't, they in fact look at like produced television commercials and radio commercials as. Poison in a way, they almost react negatively to it. 'cause there's no trust there. They've seen it. They're really, that trust is eroded over time and they, yeah, they're gonna trust that YouTuber or that sometimes the raw videos, to your point, are better.

Yeah. Versus the highly stylized. You know, highly produced videos. The produced stuff is, yeah, it's almost like there's a disdain for it almost. It's almost an anti, you know, it's a negative thing. Right. In a sense, you know, you got, you have to have some content. Yeah. Um, and then thing I don't think I mentioned, uh, and is really efficient is the retargeting, right?

Which is, they've already hit your website, so grab the cookies. You can still use cookies. Google has not. Yeah. Retired them. Yeah. They keep saying they're going to, but they have not. And hit 'em up after the fact. And if you can, and if you can personalize the retargeting, like if they went to, like, let's say they, and you know, I'm in financial services, so let's say they went to our home loans page and checked out a mortgage or a mortgage rate.

Yep. You know, try to capture, you know, well, you'll get their cookies if, unless they had it turned off or some people do. Right. Which they can. Yeah. But then, yeah, and then just followed up with a message about mortgages or, or like a ho first time home buyer seminar or something like that. Yeah. Like some educational piece that's not so much just like, here buy us now.

It's like, here we look. You, you look like you're doing a little bit of homework on this. Here's a little bit more information you might wanna know about home loans or whatever. Coverage or service. Yeah. Because that builds trust at the end. And you know, I think sometimes if it's too hard of a sell, like I know we all wanna sell.

Yeah. You know, and, but it can be a big turnoff for people. Well, and I think if you're open to it, and, and for me, speaking from a consumer standpoint, I don't mind retargeting if I'm passionate about researching sporting equipment or, you know, something that I'm interested in. I'm kind of like, oh yeah, that's a cool, well this is on sale.

Okay, I'll, I'll check out the email. That's fine. You know, I'm, I'm into it 'cause I'm obviously doing homework. So there is, there isn't this disdain just across the board against retargeting and, and, and I think that that's a powerful tool as well. Retarget. I think the thing about digital is that, and I read a book about this, is it, it more adds value versus being, if digital is effective when it adds value.

Which means mm-hmm. It recognizes the situation the person is in, has some personalization. Mm-hmm. Uh, versus like a television commercial. Mm-hmm. Which is intrusive. Interesting. Yeah. And people don't necessarily wanna see it 'cause it doesn't necessarily apply to them. Um, so this is why there's been a big trend in, into digital is not just the demographics, um, uh, but also this idea of it allows you to capture some information and deliver relevant information to them so that, you know, those are some of the, and also the, sorry, also the performance marketing aspects of digital is appealing in that you can.

You're only paying if they click, you know, you're only paying if they see a video. Yeah. You know that that's the, that's also a huge trend because you know, those, those left brain folks, they really like to be able to quantify the sequel those and only pay if, if there's a behavior for the behavior, which mass media doesn't do that.

Yeah. And I think when you use that television commercial example, that's hard. That format alone, just the format of a tele 32nd or a minute commercial, you can't deliver enough value and compete with a piece of really highly targeted, relevant educational content. You know, like, let's talk about home loans.

They can only say so much in a minute, you know? But if you send them to a link or a white paper or something, that gives them vast amounts of knowledge that will beat out. That kind of, and I, I kind of look at those opportunities as more something that's kinda almost brand awareness as opposed to actual Yep.

You know, targeted strategic marketing and advertising. You look at that brand awareness stuff, and that's really hard to justify. Obviously if you're at a scale of a golden one, you have to have a brand awareness piece tied to. Your marketing and advertising campaigns, but it can't be the focus, right? I mean, is there any, just to speak to that kind of mix, how was there a ratio, uh, that was like, we're gonna spend this much on brand marketing and, and the CMO or CFOs like, all right, I know that that's just fluff maybe on the budget, and we're gonna then spend this amount of budget on actual relevant stuff, like, speak a little bit about that breakdown.

Yeah. A couple things on that is, uh. Fortunately, I worked for an organization that believed in branding and mm-hmm. For A CEO. Mm-hmm. And A CFO that really understood the value of branding that, you know, she would say, you know, if they're not aware of you, how can they choose you? And particularly in a financial services space, you know, you're not gonna.

Trust your money with a brand you've never heard. That's true. You know? Okay. Yeah. So there's that aspect to it. And so we did track it and, um, again, fortunately, and, and I, and I feel like it did pay off in all those other, we talked about the benefits earlier Yeah. Of branding. You know, we definitely had loyalty of people who could have moved their money.

And maybe have gotten a little bit of higher return, but they believed in our mission and our involvement in the community, and we were a local company and we kind of pitched that, which I would always do as a local business, you know? Um, good. And then, um, you know, I think mass, I do think there's a place for mass media.

I think the idea is you want integrated campaigns. Hmm. Which puts a premium on planning. This is also, uh, important, is that. And I have, I'm doing a little bit of consulting now and I have a client, I actually have a marketing team of one. Oh, nice. As a client. Nice. And so, so yeah, it was kind of good. I just talked to him the other day.

So, um, and uh, you know, he's very overwhelmed and he is also doing shipping and he's also doing marketing and so it's, there you go. Interesting people. I'm like, whatcha doing? Skipping you. Um, and he's putting out fires and Yeah. But, um, but he's know doing the Google AdWords and things like that and, um, but you know, the point is that, um.

You want. And you've probably experienced this before, you know where you see a commercial or you see an ad, you know, digital or otherwise. Mm-hmm. And you don't even know who the brand is the first time you see it. Right. You know, but you kinda like it. And you're like, but what was the brand? And then, you know, you see it again and again and again.

And then, and you know, they used to say, you have to see it. Seven times. Yeah. Before it registers. I think now it's probably 10 or 12 because 11, I think Google a while back. Yeah. You know better than I, but you know, in this cluttered environment. Right. And so, but that's where the integrators, I always said, you know, like when they're driving to the airport, they see the billboard.

Uh, they're listening to the radio. They hear the golden one. Yeah. Or the streaming, you know, Pandora or whatever. Yeah. You know, they hear the ad, they, you know, they go on their website, they get a digital ad, you know, or you know what I mean? Like would you say a bad banner ad or Yeah. Uh, would you say then in the banking and financial services consumer B2C space that you are an expert in?

Yes. Brand awareness maybe is even more important as where with other. Organizations and companies. It maybe isn't as big of an investment line on that, but that that trust issue is really where the brand awareness campaigns support that. And so there is a lot more justification behind just doing brand awareness campaigns, which.

You know, I've heard both sides of the story. Like a lot of people are like, why are we wasting our money? Who cares? Right? But with a bank and a financial institution, you gotta build trust. You gotta build a brand. It's gotta live in their head for a long, long time. Maybe it's a lot more valuable and more important.

I interesting that you said that. I hadn't really thought about that way, but you're absolutely right and, and. And you have to look at what your competitors are doing. Yeah. Too, you know, competing against the big banks, you know, they were on tv, they were, oh gosh. Yeah. And I think one other aspect to it that, um, so in answer to your question is I definitely feel like it depends what you're selling Yeah.

And what your competitors are doing, and how you can kind of, uh, compete in that space. Live in the, in the, in the octagon, right? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And then, yeah. I think the other key thing would be to humanize the brand. Like have a face to the brand. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I think that's something times people forget, like I try not to use too many stock photos.

Uh, or let's put it this way, if I use stock photos, I try to depict people in the photos to have some human interaction. And I also think events so. If I were scrappy and I were you and I was a marketing team of one. Yeah. Just to kind of sum up, I would say, you know, we talked about website, we talked about social media.

I would focus on, if I had a million, let's say, versus tens of millions, I would focus on search engine optimization, which is website. Yep. You know, Optima and content findability. So a dynamic website where you, you know, you're searching high on our organic search. Mm-hmm. Um, that's changing with ai, but I, you know.

Maybe, you know, well, they call it a a What are the a IO now? Op, uh, artificial inte optimization. Can I pause? Well, this has been super informative. I mean, and this is jam packed with solid, uh, crazy information. I mean, this is wild to hear all this stuff at the scale that you've been able to implement, all those things.

Let's do a little bit of a recap here, and then if there's anything else you'd like to add, but let's just speak to the marketing teams of one out there. Let's go down the list again. You started with website, SEO. Take it from there. I mean, what else? What other, what? Let's just wrap it up. What are the main points that a marketing team of one would really, some of the things I've been thinking about and advice that I would give in summary would be given the demographic changes and the focus on mobile and digital is focus on your owned digital assets, um, website, you know.

Like there's a reason they call it HubSpot. You know, it's really a central focal point that you're gonna drive a lot of traffic to. It makes sense to, if you're going to focus and have a limited budget to, to spend time on that, um, you know, you're driving traffic to the site, you're spending money to drive traffic to the site.

You wanna optimize it, um, and really consider the full funnel, um, you know, capture the leads, um, you know, have some content that's relevant, that's not so sales oriented necessarily. 'cause there's a reason these. These folks that are visiting your site aren't buying, um, and then, you know, nurture them. Um. I would definitely use retargeting.

It's a very efficient method. Um, and again, it sort of gi can give you that return on your investment. On a related note, I would look at SEO Mm, um, and that, and that content's gonna juice your SEO, um, particularly if you. Launch a blog or, and actually, you know, if you do a newsletter mm-hmm. And capture the content, those people are gonna be coming back.

You know, you're gonna be giving them links that go back to the Hmm. You know? Yeah. And that's what you want to do, right? Is give them links in your newsletter or in your communication that takes 'em back to the website. So that'll all help with the SEO. And then I would look at search engine optimization and just.

Buying some keywords. Okay. So again, if you have a limited budget, you know, look at the keywords. Um, you can do conquesting where you, um, buy some keywords that have your competitor's brand in there. So if they're searching for a competitor, you know, you can pop up in the ad. Portion of the results.

Conquesting. Conquesting, yes. Never used that word on this podcast. So like that. Yeah. That's cool. Word, cool word. Um, the next step I would be like if you still have more budget. Yeah. Um, and time is really looking at your brand reputation and, and managing your brand reputation across all digital.

Properties, you know, social and the internet, and there's tools you can buy. There's sentiment tools you can buy to really gauge that. And then there's, uh, Trustpilot does a lot of work around reviews and, and there's tools where you can, um, moderate. Your reviews and respond to reviews through essential tool, like where you get a tool and you just go to that tool and it'll populate some of the review sites.

Um, and then I would also say, you know, one other, again, if you have more money, I would say it's about integrated campaigns. So, uh, streaming tv mm-hmm. Um, is a great way, you know, versus broadcast. Mm-hmm. Uh, is a great way to target. Um, and it's interactive in nature where you can use QR codes. Um, we all That's good watch streaming tv, right?

So, um, you see the QR codes that pop up and sometimes you can even click on a button that will give you more product information, um, as you're watching those. And the beauty of streaming for an advertiser, not for a consumer, is they can't fast forward through those, but they can a lot of times on the DVR through broadcast.

That's true. And then if you. Wanna humanize the brand, which I think is key. Yeah. Is really putting a face on the brand. 'cause people wanna work with people. Yep. Um, I think events can play a really big role in your integrated marketing strategy. Um, and in particularly if you're a local business. Um. You know, and maybe sponsorship, you know, not just attending an event, but maybe sponsoring events.

Because as we said earlier, brand is about impressions, beliefs, and expectations. And those are driven by association. Yeah. With things. Yeah. So, you know, product placement. Probably can't afford to do product placement. But an example would be, um, you know, James Bond, you know, BMW did product placement. Yeah.

In the James Bond, um, movies. Well, there's a certain association now that you're gonna make with BMW because it's cool and it's contemporary and it's, uh, you know, it's spon, it, it's in a, a movie like James Bond, but you get the idea of an association. You have to be careful. Two with brand safety to make sure you vet these sponsorships that there's no negative connotations.

Sure. You know, and then again, it does align with your vision and your mission. Um, and then I guess the last thing I will say is, even though you're a marketing team of one, um, what you're doing is. Affects the entire organization. So you have a very critical role. Mm-hmm. Um, you're not in a silo. You know, you are developing a brand promise that needs to be delivered.

Brand promise is making a guarantee that you're gonna deliver something. Yeah. And when you do your advertising, you're making a promise and a claim, hopefully with some proof points if you don't deliver. Then the consumer's gonna be confused. Yeah. And, and lack trust and you're not gonna convert back to the trust issue again.

I think that those are really valid points. Wow. That's quite a guidebook right there. Let's just, you, let's just wrap all that up and make some sort of a. A book maybe together. Okay. Let's do a marketing table. Oh, one handbook. How's that sound? I'm down. Yeah, I think I have that journalism background. Right.

Perfect. We'll talk after this episode. Recording. Yeah. Doug, this has been awesome. I mean, my brain is just on fire thinking of a, you know, 25 more questions, but we only have a few hours to talk, so I mean, it's, uh, well, maybe I can come back. It's limiting. Yeah, I think it'd be great when you, uh. You know, I have the energy to come back again.

That'd be really wonderful to kind of talk more, 'cause there's just so much deep dive information. Again, speaking to the scale of some of the things you've been working on. Um, the budgets, you know, tens of millions of dollars of marketing and advertising spend were under your purview. I think that, you know, there's a whole science to that too, you know, but I think what you've done is you've really brought it down, and I really appreciate how you've taken those gigantic kind of pie in the sky from my perspective, budgets and perspectives, and really brought it down to that single point.

Of marketing that exists in a lot of small, small organizations. So thanks again. Appreciate it. Did you wanna give out some of your socials, or how do, how do we get in touch with you, Doug? I mean, it's, yeah. Well, I just wanna also thank you for inviting me and it's been a pleasure to meet you. Um, and check out your page design organization and some of your podcasts and, um, hopefully we will start a friendship, which will be nice.

Uh, and as for me, uh, you know, I am, uh. Dipping my toe a little bit into the consulting business. I'm enjoying it so far. Good. Um, um, so I have a, a company called Utopia. I have not launched a website yet. Okay. But you're the fir first time I've ever said it. Um, it's called Utopia Marketing Consultancy, and I'm looking to go in that direction.

I'm big on LinkedIn, so, okay. Please connect with me on LinkedIn. Um, and if you have any further questions, I'm happy to answer questions and maybe grab coffee or something. That sounds great. Yeah, we'll put all that information in the show notes for sure, so that people can get in touch with you and, uh, tap your gigantic brain, uh, for all of those insightful little bits of knowledge there.

So thank you so much, Doug. We appreciate it. Sounds great. I appreciate it too. Yeah, thanks. Thanks everybody.

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